INTERVIEW: Joan Halifax Roshi
by Danny Fisher
Joan Halifax Roshi is one of the modern engaged Buddhist movement’s great heroines. A Zen priest, anthropologist, shaman, activist, and author, she is also the founder, abbot, and head teacher at Upaya Zen Center, a Buddhist monastery in Santa Fe, New Mexico.
For over ten years Roshi studied with Korean Zen master Seung Sahn, and was a teacher in his Kwan Um Zen School. She also received the Lamp Transmission from Thich Nhat Hanh, and was given inka (formal acknowledgment of the completion of Zen training) by Roshi Bernie Glassman.
A founding teacher of Glassman’s Zen Peacemaker Order, she also established the Ojai Foundation in 1975 while working as a research assistant for mythologist Joseph Campbell.
In addition, Roshi, who holds a Ph.D. in medical anthropology and psychology from the University of Miami’s School of Medicine, is the author of several wonderful books, including The Fruitful Darkness: A Journey Through Buddhist Practice and Tribal Wisdom, Shaman: The Wounded Healer, Shamanic Voices: A Survey of Visionary Narratives, A Buddhist Life in America: Simplicity in Context, and The Human Encounter with Death (with ex-husband Stanislav Grof).
Roshi’s writings and teachings on being with death and dying are really quite extraordinary and have enjoyed wide interest. She frequently teaches about end-of-life care in a variety of settings–from universities to religious institutions to medical centers and beyond. Her efforts in this area have also earned her an Honorary Research Fellowship at Harvard University. Roshi’s Wikipedia page quotes Christopher S. Queen (from the book Westward Dharma: Buddhism Beyond Asia), who writes of her work:
- She teaches the techniques of ‘being with death and dying’ to…terminally ill patients, doctors, nurses, lovers, family, and friends. She speaks calmly, with authority. In a culture where death is an enemy to be ignored, denied, and hidden away, Joan physically touches the dying. She holds them, listens to them, comforts them, calms them, and eases their suffering by any means possible. She shares their thoughts and fears; she feels their last shuddering breaths, holding them in her arms. She travels easily from church to synagogue, hospice to hospital, dispensing techniques and training born of Buddhist traditions and beliefs in a culturally and spiritually flexible manner.
Most recently, Roshi joined His Holiness the Dalai Lama and an illustrious panel of speakers (including Jon Kabat-Zinn, Daniel Goleman, Matthieu Ricard, Richard J. Davidson, and Linda E. Carlson) for the Mind & Life Institute‘s Sixteenth Annual Conference, “Investigating the Mind-Body Connection: The Science and Clinical Applications of Meditation”, at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, NY. (I previously blogged about this event here and here.)
One of Roshi’s latest projects is the Upaya Buddhist Chaplaincy Training, which I blogged about in this post from a couple of weeks ago. The training, which will feature guest lectures and work with a remarkable group of caregivers and Buddhist teachers, is described this way:
- …A visionary and comprehensive two-year certificated program for a new kind of chaplaincy intended to serve individuals, communities, the environment, and the world. The program focuses on altruistic and compassionate leadership and service, and on social transformation from a systems perspective. It is intended to prepare people to have the skillful means to transform all forms of suffering, including suffering induced by structural violence.
I was curious to know more about the program, and when Maia Duerr at Upaya emailed me recently, I asked if Roshi would be willing to answer some questions for the blog. She very kindly agreed. We “spoke” via email.
DANNY FISHER: Roshi, what can you tell us about the history of Upaya Buddhist Chaplaincy Training? How did it get started? Who was involved?
JOAN HALIFAX ROSHI: The Upaya Buddhist Chaplaincy Program is the outcome of many years of social action and social service work. This began during the civil rights and anti-war movements in the sixties and continues to this day. The program is based in the nonduality of social transformation and contemplation and for the last twenty-five years in systems thinking and theory, which is so close to Buddhist philosophy. In sum, the program is the essence of my life’s work and vision.
D.F.: In the literature for the program, it’s stated that chaplaincy is conceived of as “compassionate service from the point of view of systems change, a deep healing that takes place in concentric circles, from intrapsychic and interpersonal to environmental and global.” The idea of chaplaincy, it says, is based not just on Buddhist philosophy, but also complexity and systems theory. For the benefit of readers who aren’t familiar with complexity and systems theory, would you say a bit about them? Also, how do they complement a Buddhist approach to chaplaincy?
J.H.R.: Systems theory emphasizes interconnectedness (dependent co-arising), the process of emergence (based in not-knowing), and robustness (positive outcomes from breakdowns).
D.F.: I recently came across a really wonderful piece you wrote for the Journal of Pastoral Counseling in 1994. It’s called “The Way of Compassion”, and in it you write: “I believe that Buddhism, shamanism, and deep ecology in different ways are calling us to put our ear against the body of the Earth, to listen closely to what is really being said, and to consider the consequences of what we are hearing.” The importance of this level of environmental responsibility comes up again and again in the program’s areas of training. Would you say something about the special importance of environmental consciousness for chaplains?
J.H.R.: We are not separate from the world we live in, the earth we live with. [We are not separate from] all [other] beings. And there are many pathways as a chaplain one can follow to serve our environment. No one has conceived of an environmental chaplaincy until this program. But it was clear to me that we need to serve the earth just as we serve a dying person.
D.F.: Roshi, you gave a talk recently at the Mayo Clinic on “Compassionate and Mindful End-of-Life Care: A Relational-Contemplative Approach for Clinicians”. Among other things, you talked about issues of communication and work in small groups. A large part of the Buddhist Chaplaincy Training’s curriculum is devoted to “ethics, relationship and communication.” What sorts of communication challenges do those working in caring communities face? How does the program address those challenges?
J.H.R.: Chaplaincy is nothing else than relationship, so communication is an essential part of our training. For example, we are working with Dr. Tony Back on how to effectively communicate “bad news.” We are also working with Fleet Maull on non-violent communication. Dr. Dan Siegel will be doing a program with me on the “neurobiology of we” next year. Meg Wheatley will be doing a training on leadership, systems theory, and communication. As you can see, we are bringing in the best teachers and leaders to the program to teach us how to bring more depth and skill into our transformational interventions.
D.F.: In that same talk at the Mayo Clinic, you also spoke a bit about clinician self-assessment and self-care. You quoted literature from the University of Virginia Medical School: “A good practice of medicine depends upon physicians’ awareness of both their patients’ and their own spirituality.” What does good self-care for clinicians and other caregivers look like?
J.H.R.: This is a big and important question. Self-care involves many different domains, including the physical, intellectual, emotional, spiritual, social, cultural, the joyful, and creative. Often the heroic model and need for identity create pressures that diminish self-respect and the well-being of a caregiver. We give strategies to end these sorts of destructive behaviors. Bodhisattvas have to sustain their wellbeing as well as care for the world. There is no self, no other. So we see care of the caregiver as an essential part of our training program.
D.F.: Lastly, I notice that you have a book coming out later this summer–Being With Dying: Cultivating Compassion and Fearlessness in the Presence of Death. What can you tell us about it?
J.H.R.: From one point of view, I have been working on this book for forty years as it encompasses forty years of work in the field. From another point of view, the book is very new in feeling. Like my book The Fruitful Darkness, I feel it is a beautiful book, useful and rich. It is being published on my 66th birthday, and has thus far been very well reviewed. I hope you will read it…
D.F.: I certainly will. Thank you for your time and your work, Roshi.
For more information about the Upaya Buddhist Chaplaincy Training, contact Maia Duerr at chaplaincy@upaya.org, or visit http://www.upaya.org/training/chaplaincy.php.

Great interview, Danny. Thank you.
These words by this great bodhisattva provide wway to describe the stream running through all of us chaplains, to name the course of the stream and describe how it sounds.
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